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 Post subject: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:10 am 
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So, as much as I like Serris, I do wonder why it's in this game. Serris appeared in Sector 4 (AQA) in Metroid Fusion. But Sector 1 (SRX) is the sector modeled after SR388. So we have no real evidence pointing to Serris being listed among the fauna of SR388. Of course, we don't really have evidence pointing to the contrary either. I just thought it was weird. It could definitely work, but it seems like a roll of the dice to assume it wouldn't conflict with Metroid canon. Then again, maybe I'm missing something. Can anyone think of any solid proof that Serris is indigenous to SR388?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:24 am 
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Mike E.L. the Gamer wrote:
So, as much as I like Serris, I do wonder why it's in this game. Serris appeared in Sector 4 (AQA) in Metroid Fusion. But Sector 1 (SRX) is the sector modeled after SR388. So we have no real evidence pointing to Serris being listed among the fauna of SR388. Of course, we don't really have evidence pointing to the contrary either. I just thought it was weird. It could definitely work, but it seems like a roll of the dice to assume it wouldn't conflict with Metroid canon. Then again, maybe I'm missing something. Can anyone think of any solid proof that Serris is indigenous to SR388?


Considering that the Arachnus is also in Fusion but first appeared in Metroid II, and the fact that we never really get to see the whole planet in any Metroid game (just a very small area), who are we to say that it isn't? Clearly, the BSL station had all the different Metroid types in it as well, so who are we to say that it's just a species that wasn't encountered there by Samus in the original, but specimens were brought from SR388?

If anything, the inclusion of Serris in AM2R gives its appearance in Fusion more meaning. Otherwise, it just seems like a one-time cool boss without any other context to connect it to anything in the lore.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:17 am 
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EVERYTHING in Fusion is a recreation of SR388 and its ecosystems. The entire plot twist of that game is that the BSL was made from the ground up to clone Metroids, and evolve them, in replicas of their native environments since metroids could not evolve anywhere else.

This means that, yes, all sectors are SR388 biomes, and all creatures in the station came from the planet. This includes Serris.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:43 am 
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Technically BSL had things that may not have been from SR388, for example the remains of Ridley, Dachoras and the Etacoons.

But many of hte enemies actually originated from Zebes as well. Actually most of the Metroid II managerie do not appear in Fusion. With only a few examples such as Hornoads.

It also had quite a few species from Zebes as well. Bull, Choot, Dessgeega, Geruta, Evirs, Fune, Heat Worms, Gadora, Geemers, Kago, Menu, Namihe, Nova/Sovas, Owtches, Powamp, Puyo, Reo, Rippers, Samus Easter, Scisers, Sidehoppers, Skuletera, Wavers, Zebesians (and all other Space Pirates being held), Zeela are all examples. Zozoro maybe related to the Zeros of Zebes as well.

Of course some of these enemies can also be found on other planets as shown in the Metroid Prime series as well.

But it seems to suggest BSL was likely a space zoo in a way... Possibly collecting species around the galaxy.

Of course the Chozo may have seeded many of the planets around the galaxy with their own bioengineered species anyways... Metroids exist on more planets than SR388, in various degrees of power/mutations... So its all kinda moot...


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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:32 am 
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Baggins wrote:
Technically BSL had things that may not have been from SR388, for example the remains of Ridley, Dachoras and the Etacoons.

But many of hte enemies actually originated from Zebes as well. Actually most of the Metroid II managerie do not appear in Fusion. With only a few examples such as Hornoads.

It also had quite a few species from Zebes as well. Bull, Choot, Dessgeega, Geruta, Evirs, Fune, Heat Worms, Gadora, Geemers, Kago, Menu, Namihe, Nova/Sovas, Owtches, Powamp, Puyo, Reo, Rippers, Samus Easter, Scisers, Sidehoppers, Skuletera, Wavers, Zebesians (and all other Space Pirates being held), Zeela are all examples. Zozoro maybe related to the Zeros of Zebes as well.

Of course some of these enemies can also be found on other planets as shown in the Metroid Prime series as well.

But it seems to suggest BSL was likely a space zoo in a way... Possibly collecting species around the galaxy.

Of course the Chozo may have seeded many of the planets around the galaxy with their own bioengineered species anyways... Metroids exist on more planets than SR388, in various degrees of power/mutations... So its all kinda moot...


It's not moot. Fusion was the first game in the series to clearly establish that there were corrupt elements within the Federation hierarchy who were in bed with the pirates, presumably via Faustian deals and whatnot. Other M reintroduced this concept with regard to the re-cloning of Ridley and giving Mother Brain a more compact android body (kinda sorta, not exactly), although it's supposed to take place well before Fusion in the timeline.

Furthermore, as a sort of snob when it comes to the Metroid lore, I have to remind you that the term "Zebesian" is improper and heavily misleading. The "Zebesian pirates" were not natives of Zebes (which I still argue is properly pronounced as "ZEE-biss," as it was commonly pronounced way back in the day, and amateur voice actors and screen actors alike have been in dire need of "Hooked On Phonics" for quite some time now :/ ) but were "processed" genetic experiments. Most, if not all, of the adversaries you face in the original trilogy are products of genetic engineering. The term "Zebesian" comes from Sakamoto being a retard who wasn't paying attention to the lore and improperly decided to retcon Zebes as the pirate homeworld when it wasn't (that would be Urtraghus).

So basically, if Mother Brain has a chunk of the Federation in her pocket, it stands to reason that they'd help re-clone her army and her generals. So, since Fusion unveiled a lot of corruption in the Federation, since such experiments were - according to the games - illegal, and the Feddies shouldn't have anything like the BSL, that's the reason for the mix of Metroid II and Super Metroid critters.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:35 am 
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Didn't one of the games suggest that there are quite a few 'brain computers' like Mother Brain?

Aurora Units in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.

There really aren't that many Metroid II enemies in Fusion (2-3 tops? Hornoad, and the Arachnus). Most of the enemeis in the game are ripped out of Super Metroid. Then again get reused in Zero Mission.

Interesting information about Urtraghus but apparently it was a scrapped idea created for Prime 3: Corruption, and never used. What material even discusses the planet visited in Prime 3 just calls it 'one of the pirate's homeworlds'.

So that many fans just consider the details as 'non-canon' since it hasn't been used officially yet.

Sort of hard to 'retcon' anything if the material was never officially released in the first place.
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate_Ho ... ite_note-1

And considering the number of convoluted internal lore edits that prime trilogy underwent over the course of the series... during its various localizations... It hasn't been internally consistent. Requiring its own retconning, and retconning lore surrounding information it has in relation to old trilogy material, that has created some of its own plot holes. Like the existence of Metroid inside of the Phazon asteroid. It was originally a Metroid that the pirates brought to the planet, that escaped entered the asteroid and somehow helped spread the phazon that it started to produce in its body. To later localizations changing it to a Metroid that travelled to Tallon IV on board the asteroid from Phaaze. Metroid Prime being from Phaaze, yet metroids were created by Chozo, but never discovered Phaaze.

There are a number of chicken or the egg paradoxes created as the series went forward.

This lead to the need to predesignate the metroids in Metroid Prime series as Tallon metroids, since they are weaker and different than classic series metroids.

But that's not saying the original non-prime series is necessarily 'consistent'. Other M introduces a few plot holes and its own inconsistencies IIRC as well.


Last edited by Baggins on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:52 am 
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http://metroid.retropixel.net/gallery.p ... mage_id=20

BTW, its the manual for Fusion that states that that all enemies encountered including the pirates on board the BLS were 'test subjects'. Even the 'research zombies' (were either test subject slime creatures or x mimicking the research team) .

I barely remember other details in the game... All I can remember was it implying that the Federation were working on metroids (from DNA taken from the Child Metroid from Samus Suit IIRC) as a potential bioweapon use. I don't remember anything about pirates in cahoots directly... By the time you encounter pirates in the game, they are all infested or x-mimic creatures.

As mentioned the manual only mentions the two 'native SRR-388' creatures encountered in the game. Hornoads and Arachnus.

There is at least a suggestion elsewhere that Biologic was an "organization which studies dangerous creatures from distant planets." Which suggests that they were collecting creatures from more than SRR388. It just happens to be that 90% of the creatures in the game are those that appear on Zebes. Several more that also appear in the various 'Prime' series planets as well

Its interesting that the "Zebesian pirates" that appear in Fusion are also rather 'bird-like' similar to the Chozo. But appear to be wearing bug-like armor..


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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:44 pm 
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Baggins wrote:
BTW, its the manual for Fusion that states that that all enemies encountered including the pirates on board the BLS were 'test subjects'. Even the 'research zombies' (were either test subject slime creatures or x mimicking the research team) .

I barely remember other details in the game... All I can remember was it implying that the Federation were working on metroids (from DNA taken from the Child Metroid from Samus Suit IIRC) as a potential bioweapon use. I don't remember anything about pirates in cahoots directly... By the time you encounter pirates in the game, they are all infested or x-mimic creatures.

As mentioned the manual only mentions the two 'native SRR-388' creatures encountered in the game. Hornoads and Arachnus.

There is at least a suggestion elsewhere that Biologic was an "organization which studies dangerous creatures from distant planets." Which suggests that they were collecting creatures from more than SRR388. It just happens to be that 90% of the creatures in the game are those that appear on Zebes. Several more that also appear in the various 'Prime' series planets as well

Its interesting that the "Zebesian pirates" that appear in Fusion are also rather 'bird-like' similar to the Chozo. But appear to be wearing bug-like armor..


Yes, and it is explained in the lore that such bioweapon research was illegal according to Federation law, which is why areas in Fusion like the Metroid breeding project were heavily restricted areas you can't get to until later. The whole point of Metroid II is these things aren't supposed to be researched and need to be wholly exterminated. Samus's altruistic thought to hand off the Metroid baby in Super comes back to bite her in the ass right after she departs Ceres, and her home from ages 3-16 gets blown up. Lesson learned. Not to mention Adam gives her shit for it.

Fusion also states that the Federation didn't ask for or expect her help on the BSL station, which is why they stopped sending her data once she started snooping around in the wrong places and saw they were up to no good, and A.D.A.M. tried to lock her in a room under orders from up on high. It's also confirmed by the shadowy figure - implied to also be the Colonel from Other M - who appears twice in attempts to cover up the Metroid breeding program.

Remember also that BSL contains all of the Metroid variants except for the Queen, so it's not just those few enemies from SR388.

So it was the first game to imply that the Federation types were doing things they shouldn't be and were trying to keep it quiet.

The Chozo/"Zebesian" pirate thing I've explained elsewhere, and why I hate the use of the term "Zebesian" because it's inaccurate and grossly misleading. Think of them like "processed" Chozo, not unlike how the Collectors in Mass Effect are genetically modified Protheans who serve the Reapers. Same idea. They are not native to planet Zebes and they're only called that because Sakamoto doesn't double-check the lore before he writes whatever he wants.

Baggins wrote:
Didn't one of the games suggest that there are quite a few 'brain computers' like Mother Brain?

Aurora Units in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.

There really aren't that many Metroid II enemies in Fusion (2-3 tops? Hornoad, and the Arachnus). Most of the enemeis in the game are ripped out of Super Metroid. Then again get reused in Zero Mission.

Interesting information about Urtraghus but apparently it was a scrapped idea created for Prime 3: Corruption, and never used. What material even discusses the planet visited in Prime 3 just calls it 'one of the pirate's homeworlds'.

So that many fans just consider the details as 'non-canon' since it hasn't been used officially yet.

Sort of hard to 'retcon' anything if the material was never officially released in the first place.
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate_Ho ... ite_note-1

And considering the number of convoluted internal lore edits that prime trilogy underwent over the course of the series... during its various localizations... It hasn't been internally consistent. Requiring its own retconning, and retconning lore surrounding information it has in relation to old trilogy material, that has created some of its own plot holes. Like the existence of Metroid inside of the Phazon asteroid. It was originally a Metroid that the pirates brought to the planet, that escaped entered the asteroid and somehow helped spread the phazon that it started to produce in its body. To later localizations changing it to a Metroid that travelled to Tallon IV on board the asteroid from Phaaze. Metroid Prime being from Phaaze, yet metroids were created by Chozo, but never discovered Phaaze.

There are a number of chicken or the egg paradoxes created as the series went forward.

This lead to the need to predesignate the metroids in Metroid Prime series as Tallon metroids, since they are weaker and different than classic series metroids.

But that's not saying the original non-prime series is necessarily 'consistent'. Other M introduces a few plot holes and its own inconsistencies IIRC as well.


The Metroid wiki - as I have said before - is a poorly-maintained, fan-made project which asserts many things that are either fan-canon or even fan-art as official. A lot of information there is wholly incorrect. Don't treat anything it says as gospel. It's one of the leading reasons most fans aren't really up to snuff on basic canon and where Sakamoto twisted things. IIRC Urtraghus was used in the Japanese localization but not the English Language one, in which it is just referred to as the "Pirate Homeworld".

Regarding the use of the term "official," Nintendo does such a poor job with this IP they slap things around willy-nilly, including all the different versions of Samus's origin which they interchangeably decide are official when they're in a certain mood and someone shows up at the office in a green tie. That doesn't change the fact that among all the different stories, there are some events which make more sense linearly than others, and from that we can piece together a more "proper" timeline so long as we treat the Yokoi/Kano stuff as foundational canon and rewrite Sakamoto's toilet-paper writing to properly fit that world-building.

Aurora Units do appear in Fusion as well, if I recall correctly. If I'm not mistaken they can be seen in the background tiling of one of the levels. The BOX bosses in Fusion also have AU-like brain components.

This was always meant to support the notion that corrupt portions of the Federation were working in service to the Pirates, and recloning their forces after their losses, explaining how Mother Brain could reappear in Super Metroid after just two games before she was, well... pretty dead. And yes, Mother Brain is some form of primitive Aurora Unit (at least, that's the implication). IIRC A.D.A.M.'s module inside of Samus's ship is also a cloned brain in a jar inserted into the ship's hardware, but don't quote me on that one, I may be confusing that with official concept art I saw for something else (I work in this industry so I see a lot of stuff).

We know the Pirate hierarchy communicates telepathically so it's somewhat implied that the Mother Brains Samus has fought are not the real deal, but "proxy bodies" telepathically controlled remotely, explaining why the two subsequent resurrections of the character still had the same MO instead of being born a blank slate.

As for plot holes and inconsistencies or chicken-and-egg paradoxes, not so much, unless you regard Zero Mission as canon, which you shouldn't. It was a novelty made as a cash grab, but is anachronistic in the time line, and the instruction manual description of the story spits on Kano's lore so hard it's not even funny. The only real problem with Prime is it doesn't fit neatly between the first 2 games and was crowbarred in, whereas it would work better as a sequel series.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:21 pm 
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You do know that the Metroid wikia is not highly regarded and that there is another wiki that's taken more seriously, right, kat?

http://www.metroidwiki.org/w/index.php

It does have some problems and needs some clearing up, but the wikia version seems inconsistant.

Also, WHY is MZM being canon a bad thing? I think I remember reading somewhere that it was said that MZM states that they mark Zebes as the primary Space Pirate base. This is incorrect; I just looked at my MZM instruction manual and it only calls Zebes a "base of operations." That statement does not imply nor state PRIMARY base of operations. Zebes is just where the pirates where doing their first testing on the Metroids.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Serris REALLY from SR388?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:14 pm 
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aegisrunestone wrote:
You do know that the Metroid wikia is not highly regarded and that there is another wiki that's taken more seriously, right, kat?

http://www.metroidwiki.org/w/index.php

It does have some problems and needs some clearing up, but the wikia version seems inconsistant.

Also, WHY is MZM being canon a bad thing? I think I remember reading somewhere that it was said that MZM states that they mark Zebes as the primary Space Pirate base. This is incorrect; I just looked at my MZM instruction manual and it only calls Zebes a "base of operations." That statement does not imply nor state PRIMARY base of operations. Zebes is just where the pirates where doing their first testing on the Metroids.


I stand corrected on the Space Pirate base remark. However, that wikia isn't great, either. I'd say it's just as bad, because many of its articles are far more lacking by comparison to the Metroid wiki.

As for the rest of the game, there are still too many inconsistencies and anachronistic elements for it to fit into the lore. Certain things were incorporated into the game but weren't supposed to happen until later. Other aspects of the game violate the lore, including - but not restricted to - Zero Suit Samus. Not just because she became a barbie doll, but the Paralyzer is redundant and unnecessary for a laundry list of reasons to anyone familiar with the lore to a decent extent.

All that aside, it isn't meant to be canon, just the novelty of a visual overhaul of the game, because it was really meant to be an AM2R-style remake of Metroid II that they fucked up, and, not wanting to lose out on the financial investment they already put into it, decided to recycle what they had available to them to make some bank. Ergo, it is non-canon.

Technically-speaking, the description of Samus and the Metroids from the original game was retroactively retconned starting with Metroid II and in more detail with Super Metroid, but since the in-game experience doesn't provide much in the way of narrative within its game design like the latter two, it's just easier to ignore what the 1986 instruction manual says and pretend it's all the same thing. Zero Mission, however, doesn't fit that same mold. It makes changes to things nonsensically, the result of Sakamoto being able to do whatever he wants without anyone telling him "no" and overall poor IP maintenance.


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