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 Post subject: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Rule #1: Be civilized.

So in an effort to breath some life into this forum. I decided to try and get everyone to talk about something that has always naturally garnered conversation.

POLITICS

So what are your opinions on things in your country? In other countries?
Are you typically a Liberal person? Conservative? Libertarian? Authoritative?
What are your feelings on Brexit? The US Election? The environment? Where does racial tension come from, if you happen to be in a country that's experiencing that?

Just some examples of somewhere to start.

Remember Rule #1 though, be civilized. You can be as heated as you want, you can be as passionate as you want. I expect a little bit of flame here and there.

But the last thing this place needs is a slew of name calling. We're all human, and we all want the best for ourselves or our beliefs. So the point would be to find out why someone on the other side believes the way they do, and maybe convince them of your point of view, not belittle them because of it.

I also expect the mods of the site will take matters into their own hand if things get too crazy. So don't give them a reason to do so and you'll be fine. At the same time, moderators, allow a little bit of passion from us posters, and use discretion on when that gray blur of a line is crossed.



There's a decent site with a quiz to help you get a bearing. I wished some of their questions would have been worded differently, but such is the case with any survey really.

Political Spectrum Quiz

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:35 am 
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I am a Libertarian with conservative leanings

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:06 pm 
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Me too. I used to be more Liberal until lately. And the shenanigans of this year made me want to lean righter. What country are you from?

Here's my results from the quiz.

My Political Views
I am a right social libertarian
Right: 3.09, Libertarian: 3.78
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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:10 pm 
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Location: Poland
Almost bullseye, lol
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"You are a centrist social moderate." it said. k
Sounds like nobody though D:

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:13 am 
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I'm from the United States, and yeah, I used to lean far more right than I do now. I took that test years ago, but I find it doesn't often reflect my actual views as it's a bit too black and white and many of the answers I would give would fall between the extremes

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:02 pm 
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You can modify the chart it spits out a bit if you feel it wasn't accurate enough. There's a part of the url that is "#x#". That's the X/Y coordinates of your marker on the chart. (For the Y higher numbers are lower marks.)

I always thought it was a bit of a jerk move when surveys include a question that is absolute. For instance "should abortion be illegal, yes or no?" Well my answer is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. I want to say. "No not illegal, but it shouldn't be funded by taxpayer money. That way someone who doesn't believe in abortions isn't indirectly financing the procedure." but that's not one of the options. No one thinks in grey like that anymore it's all like you said, black and white nowadays.

Can't remember if that was a question on there or not really. Just a generalization. Or how about this one? "Should gay marriage be legal? Yes or No?" So when I start off by saying "Yes," the pro-gay-marriage people think 'thank you' and want to stop me there, and the religious immediately assume I'm against them. However, when I continue my explanation, "but churches, reception halls, bakeries, photographers, etc. should not be forced to participate at all in a gay marriage if they don't want to. They say no, they're saying no to your business. Take your money elsewhere and find another whatever, let the competition for business change their minds, not the government." Now suddenly the pros think I'm against it in the first place. No matter what you say, you can't win, because people don't like compromise, they want absolutes because those are easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:16 am 
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I feel the exact same way there! Far too often the real answers people feel are in that grey area. Gay Marriage, any stance you have will be judged, even if that answer is...kinda?
It's just crazy how black and white things can get sometimes. I mean, what if your answer is: No to gay marriage, but yet to same *** civil unions?
People forget, and I'll admit, at times I do as well, that situations often have more than one angle to them. Same thing with the concept as you brought up with abortion. Sometimes the answer is: Maybe.
I find myself leaning more towards that middle ground for most hot button topics. Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, all those things.

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:59 pm 
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Okay so I have to ask the questions everyone's thinking of.

If you're from the USA, and of voting age. Who did you vote for?

If you're from Britain, and of voting age. Did you vote leave, or remain?

... and why?


I'm American, and I voted against Hillary. I voted for Trump, but it wasn't for Trump as much as it was against Hillary and the media. My vote was driven by a desire to stick a middle finger up at the mainstream media for playing identity politics, and pretty much being down right racist. Talking down to people the way they always do. I also felt like she personified everything that was wrong in politics; the corruption, the condescending attitude to the middle class, the list goes on.

And when she got up on a stage and called me deplorable and racist just for even considering Trump, that was just the icing on the cake. I was still willing to consider her position, because let's be honest, there's a lot wrong with Trump. But when she did that, she solidified my position. People tend to not like it when you call them names.

I'm not British, but if I was, I would have voted Leave for very similar reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:28 am 
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I voted very similar to you Ridley, however I put my hopes in the third party. I was against Hillary (but I can honestly see people who stand for her as well), but also against Trump, but more because it's hard to trust someone without much of a political history and who never really put much into where he truly stood. honestly...that's kind of why I voted against Obama both terms, he never gave a clear indication where he stood, so I couldn't trust him for anything.
anyway, I went with Gary Johnson, may not stand for everything I do, but at least I knew WHERE he stood.

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 Post subject: Re: Where worlds collide - POLITICS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:29 am 
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Location: United States
~ WARNING ~
This is a pretty long post. There's a TLDR at the bottom if you're lazy. Don't just read the first paragraph and criticize, read everthing.
~ WARNING ~


As an American I'm not of legal voting age, but if I could have voted it would have been for Donald Trump. This is for multiple reasons. Not only is he a good middle finger to the media and political correctness (something which is only dangerous as it leads to an excuse for censorship of free speech), I also found his major political stances aligning fairly well with mine. These political views would be illegal immigration, the second amendment (his willingness to stand up for the constitution), and the economy.


Starting with the one that has dominated the last year and a half, immigration, I want to make his stance more clear to those who clearly, possibly even willingly, misheard and misinterpreted his position. For reference, here's a quote from Trump's announcement speech way back in June of 2015.

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

Now, after reading his statement whole, without a news filter, does it sound like he is saying that all Mexicans are rapists and druggies? No, because he never did. It is important to understand going into Trump's position on immigration that he is not against Mexicans as a whole, or any race for that matter, but instead is only against other countries taking advantage of our own (this is a result of the patriotism that he feels for this country, but I'll get into that later).

His position on immigration is actually fairly simple. People, mostly from Mexico at the moment, are coming into our country illegally, so we need a more effective way to prevent illegal immigration. His proposed solution is a wall. While many people say a wall won't work because you can just put a ladder up and climb over, keep in mind that the wall does not replace the officers patrolling it, but rather aides them in the job of keeping unauthorized people out. A strong physical barrier with effective enforcement is nearly impossible to pass by most means (just ask the Vatican, Israel, or the White House). In all cases, the amount of trespassers has been cut and those that do manage usually end up with a lot of trouble on their hands.


Moving on from the big one, another classic fight that has been fought between Republicans and Democrats is the second amendment. Here's a couple quotes from Trump on the second amendment, just to make sure you're aware he is in fact pro-gun.

"The Second Amendment to our Constitution is clear. The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed upon. Period."

"The Second Amendment guarantees a fundamental right that belongs to all law-abiding Americans. The Constitution doesn’t create that right – it ensures that the government can’t take it away. Our Founding Fathers knew, and our Supreme Court has upheld, that the Second Amendment’s purpose is to guarantee our right to defend ourselves and our families. This is about self-defense, plain and simple."

Here is how the second amendment reads, in full:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Let's break this down, for those that don't understand the second amendment fully. To start off, you must understand that, at the time the Bill of Rights was created, "A well regulated Militia" was not exclusively a form of military; it referred to citizens as well since they were, at that time, a primary line of defense against foreign threats (hence "militia").

The next part of the amendment is "being necessary to the security of a free state," which says that a "well regulated militia" (people with guns) is needed to protect the freedom of the citizens. In other words, without people who have an effective way of protecting themselves (guns), the government can enforce any law and do anything to it's citizens without retaliation. Take North Korea for example. Don't you think something would be different if every citizen in North Korea could go out and buy a gun? You would see an uprising like never before.

Onto the final half of the amendment is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This speaks for itself. The citizens of America have a constitutional right, not a privilege, to "keep and bear arms" that shall not be infringed. It is almost redundant to say "shall not be infringed" since every right is a guarantee unless another amendment is proposed against it. This is an example of the Founding Fathers' intent to exemplify the importance of this single amendment.

With all that in mind, I hope you can see why the second amendment is a big one on my list. Trump will be responsible for multiple Supreme Court appointments who will all have an effect on the constitution.


Hopping into the last major political reason, the economy. Trump's company is extremely successful and only works to reassure me that he knows how to work with the economy, and if you don't believe so, let me try to convince you otherwise.

For one thing, he took a "small loan of a million dollars" and made it into a gigantic ten billion dollar empire reaching heights even his father, who started him out, could only dream of.

One of the criticisms people make on Trump is that his companies have gone bankrupt multiple times and a few have failed. At first, that sounds pretty bad, especially when that's all you hear about. There's just something missing from the picture, however. It's the fact that, out of the 515 businesses he has created in his lifetime, only 11 have declared bankruptcy or simply went under. That's basically a 97.9% rate of success in business creation, which is quite exceptional. It's important to also know that Trump has never been personally bankrupt.

So why is this important to know about Trump and how does this relate to his ability to lead a country successful in economy and security? It actually has more to do with it than you may think.

The country is a lot like a company and the president is very much like the CEO of the country; able to make important executive decisions while still limited by something, whether that is a board of directors and stockholders, or congress and the court system. Trump's ability to govern a very efficient and successful company is indicative of his ability to come to compromises with those whom he makes his decisions with as well as his ability to appoint effective advisors and other important high-level people who will lead the country to greater heights.

In other words, a man like Trump doesn't get to where he is without taking advice from competent advisors and appointing successful people below him to run the things he doesn't have time for. If he runs the country the way he has his company, taking advice from the right people and appointing the right people for the jobs needed, he will have no trouble figuring out the economy and how to fix it.


Those are my three major reasons for supporting Trump. There are stances he takes that I don't agree with, such as abortion or his anti-vaccine beliefs (at least he's being skeptical), but ultimately there are still bigger fish to fry that are much more important to focus on.


Earlier I referred to the patriotism that he feels for the country, and I'd like to address that now. Donald Trump feels a huge amount of love for the country that got him to where he is today and his campaign for president proves it. How? Well, haven't you wondered before why he even ran? Perhaps you dismissed it as an ego boost, something to uplift his family name or make his company even more popular, but that actually doesn't make much sense. When Trump ran, he already had it all. A personal wealth of over $4 billion (lots of money), a successful reality TV show which he was already publicly known for (a big ego), and a large real-estate business which got him international recognition.

Obviously, he wasn't doing it for the wealth. If anything, he lost more money than he earned; so maybe he ran for publicity and an ego. If that were the case, he would have just ran in the primary and quit by the time things got serious; enough time to make a larger name for himself internationally while still preserving his name. He didn't do that, however. He went all the way to the presidency through many sleep-lacking nights while being constantly ridiculed by almost everyone that had a voice in the world. If anything, it hurt his name and wealth as shown when some certain companies refused to sell Trump branded items.

There are still other reasons why I support Trump, but for now, I'll leave you with a couple of videos showing Trump speak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ
This video, labeled "This Video Will Get Donald Trump Elected" (stupid name, right?) is probably one of his best speeches and is definitely worth listening to whether you support him or not.

With dramatic music - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxf1XmVZ9qY
Without dramatic music - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgks1Uf4-mc&feature=youtu.be
This video (one with a dramatic piano in the background and one without), shows Trump talking about the election over the last 35 years. It only reassures me that he truly cares about America.


Phew! That was a doozie. Had to get it off my chest. Here's a helpful tldr below.

TLDR: MAGA! because reasons a, b, c, and d.


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